Mitt Romney said, “It’s about time … Moammar Gadhafi was a tyrant who terrorized the Libyan people and shed American blood, and the world is a better place without him.” Marco Rubio weighed in with, “… justice has been done today.” Meanwhile, the reports of exactly how Gadhafi died are, in the words of one network, “conflicting.”
The one constant in the accounts I have read is that when he was captured he was alive. A few minutes later, he was not. Therein lies my problem.
I will not defend or condone Gadhafi’s life or actions. They are indefensible. He was a murderer and a tyrant. None of that is in question. What is in question seems to be the issue of what we do with captured tyrants.
If Gadhafi were killed in a shootout like Saddam Hussein’s sons, I would have no problem. If we locate him in a training camp and obliterate it with a missile, I would have no problem either. Those are legitimate actions in a war zone and are morally and intellectually defensible.
However, when we found Saddam Hussein, a man just as evil as his sons or Gadhafi, hiding in a hole in Tikrit we did things a little differently. Because regardless of the lawless scum we were hunting, it was Americans doing the hunting.
The scenarios are eerily similar. Both men were found in makeshift hidey-holes. Both had members of an entourage or security detail with them. Both were discovered by a group of hundreds of their enemies, all armed to the teeth. Both were found shaken or disoriented. Both were taken alive.
The difference? Hussein was captured by American soldiers. Gadhafi was captured by Muslim insurgents. Hussein got three hots and a cot for a few months, was tried, convicted and executed. Gadhafi was promptly murdered by his captors. This act is now celebrated by GOP politicians as justice and overdue justice, at that.
When did I wake up in Bizarro World? I thought I lived in America. I thought we believed all men are created equal and none may be deprived of life without due process. As frustrating as it is, I thought mine was the nation ridiculed for wounding a criminal in a police chase, spending thousands of tax dollars to heal him, jail him and try him and execute him if he is found guilty. Because taking a man’s life – any man’s life – is the ultimate in serious.
Last month we had yet another national discussion on Capitol Punishment around the execution of Troy Davis. Several witnesses recanted their testimony and we again agonized over the ultimate punishment. Because we are Americans.
So I am disturbed when a man surrenders or is captured and it appears probable he was murdered by those who held him. That is not how we do things in America.
In the end, however, it is more disturbing that two of the most powerful and respected men in American government – Marco Rubio and Mitt Romney – find nothing wrong with the events as they transpired. Or, if you will, are unable to refrain from offering their approval of events the nature of which they do not fully know.
Perhaps such behavior is good politics. But if I have learned anything as an activist, it is that good politics breed bad realities!
The men who murdered Gadhafi do not share our values, our principles or our view of Life and the worth of every man. We may have stood alongside them as they fought a vicious strongman. But we ought to distance ourselves from them. We ought to roundly condemn them. They are as much animals as the man they murdered and by murdering him have earned our contempt and disgust.
The first act of the post-Gadhafi Libya was not to show a watching world they were ready to join it as civilized men. It was not to demonstrate that the freedom from tyranny they have publicly cried out for truly burned in their hearts. It was not to side with an American President who sent aid because their oppressor cruelly treated them in their helplessness.
They showed they were replacing Gadhafi’s tyranny with their own. They showed they pursued mere liberation instead of yearning for true Liberty.
And there are Americans who celebrate this? Words fail …
SEE ALSO:
Hillary Clinton says, “We Came. We Saw. He Died”
Pirates and Emperors: Schoolhouse Rock Video (I don’t endorse all the notions herein, but the thinking is sound – BCM)
Dead on as always!
You're an idiot. They should have tortured him.
You are the idiot….they did torture him….they could have learned a hell of a lot more with a trial!
No Lyle, I am afraid that you are the idiot. Do you think it honorable to execute a defenseless foe who has surrendered. He should have been tried, and if found guilty of his obvious crimes, which I am sure he was, then executed – Military tribunal, he is not a citizen as suggested by our current fearless leader and DOJ for terrorists. In supporting the execution, the way it was carried out, you and all who support it, put yourselves on the same plain as the vermin just exterminated.
I WONDER IF ANYONE OF US WOULD NOT RESPOND THE SAME WAY HAVING BRUTALLY BEEN SUPPRESSED , STOLEN FROM, LIED TO EVERY OTHER ATROCITY KNOWN TO MAN BY THIS MONSTER FOR OVER 40 YEARS. AND HOW ABOUT THE OVER $200 BILLION DOLLARS HE HAD PUT AWAY ……..WAS THIS NOT TAKEN FROM THE PEOPLE? IT IS VERY NICE TO SPEW DIGNIFIED SENTIMENTS WHEN YOU LIVE IN A FREE REPUBLIC AND HAVE NOT SUSTAINED THE TREATMENT THESE PEOPLE ENDURED FOR YEARS. REALITY CHANGES BEHAVIOR……….
Adele -
Yes, reality changes behavior. But even you don't agree that their behavior is moral. You are offering excuses for it.
Thus, the question becomes, how do we get them from where they are to where they need to be. I submit that it is not by giving them a pass; it is not by turning a blind eye to their bad behavior, and; it is certainly not by Americans agreeing that what they are doing is right.
The notion that somehow the horrors they endured at Gadhafi's hands justify them visiting horrors on Gadhafi is bad morality.
when will the white man pay for his crimes? tell me so on that day i can cheer like youdid when they killed these cowards killed a 70 year old man! i pray to Allah that i live to see the white man pay for his crimes!!!
I am in agreement……..a captive by the very term means, in captivity and should not be murdered because of helplessness in the situation. If he died in combat, fine. It is morally wrong for our politicians, or any one of us to cheer that he was murdered in captivity. WE ARE NOT those kind of people OR are we becoming so immune to inhumanity, we are become "those people."
Christine!! Please come back often and comment. I had almost despaired of finding another lover of Truth and Liberty. You just made my night!
I personally found it Very Distateful for "ANY" of the American Politicians who Praised Ghadafi's death. Hillary Clinton said Laughingly:
"WE CAME, WE SAW, HE DIED.
Oblamo said it was a day for Celebration from the News Conference in the Rose Garden. "WHAT" was there to Celebrate? Yes, a Tyrant was Dead, but, on the other hand the MUSLIMS can Always be counted on to show that they "ARE" Nothing Short of being BLOOD THIRSTY, INTOLERANT, IGNORANT, VICIOUS BEINGS and NOT like US in "ANY" way shape or form. This ONLY renewed my memories of Our Soldier's Corpses being Drug through the Streets and Hung Up on Dislay! They Continually Burn Our Beloved Flag and "IF" I learned "ANYTHING" about what they did to Ghadafi was the FACT that Libya is "Not" any better off. The Hatred is still there among the Muslim people and neither They or US have gained Anything. I saw a Wild Pack of Animals devouring thier Prey! We should ALL refuse to alow ourselves to fall to Thier Level. That Is "NOT" Justice .. It's Cold-Blooded Murder. Does Anybody TRULY Believe that Libya Will NOW be a Better & Safer Place in the name of FREEDOM ???
Cindy;
I agree with you. I'm not sad that Ghadafi is dead (I'm certain that the express down elvator that took his rotted soul to Hell was equipped with afterburners), but the way OUR politicans are celebrating his demise is offputting. I chalk it up to Wagging The Dog: Obutthole's number are in the sub-sub-basement but suddenly all the Dems are barking and peeing on fireplugs because THEIR man brought down another despot. THEIR "man" (he'll be a man once Michelle gives his testicles back to him) had nothing to do with it. The LIBYANS sent that bastard to his eternal fate. Omama provided OUR money and some fighters (not knocking our military: they go where they're pointed and do an outstanding job of making an asshole like Otumbo look like a golden gloves champ). I thought this was a NATO operation! Now Ofartbreath is claiming victory, further irritating the NATO partners. What a turd that man is.
Great comments! I agree. If we rejoice over this murder by Muslims, how are we going to have a case for objecting when they kill someone we like? We wouldn't be able to be consistent in our stand for right. Justice must be consistent, whoever the accused may be. Jesus said to judge not that ye be not judged, but people misinterpret that to mean we can't judge at all. That would be insane! Jesus was instructing the people to be careful about accusing people because you yourself may be accused and may find yourself guilty of the same sin or more. But he also said to "judge righteous judgement." Government is ordained of God, and our government has a Constitution which is based entirely upon Christian principles. Justice is to be dispensed fairly without regard for a person's race, creed, color, personal wealth, or position. Unfortunately, we no longer have that in this country. Maybe we never really did, but at least our laws TAKE A STAND for fairness and state what we believe as a country. We need our Constitution to set the standard for all of us, even if some of us don't follow it. If we are truly Christians, we will be consistent in our dealings with our fellow man.
Janice!! You SO rock! And you are exactly right!! Thanks!!
I Agree Janice … We ALL "MUST" make a "STAND" to "RESTORE" Our Republic to the Constitution as it was intended as the SUPREME LAW of the LAND !
Without the U.S. CONSTITUTION we as a Nation Will Be LOST FOREVER !
MAKE your STAND on VETERAN'S DAY (11-11-11) in Washington D.C. to Demand the REMOVAL or RESIGNATIONS of "ALL" the "TRAITOR'S" who are Now serving in "OUR HOUSE". These people are "NOT" AMERICANS .. NOR do They Stand for "ANYTHING" other than Corruption, Greed, Power!
It is "TIME" to keep our OATH to "Protect the Republic from "ALL" Enemies .. Foreign & Domestic". From where I sit I see More Enemies have become "DOMESTIC" than at any other time in history. "IF" America is to Survive .. it all comes down to Removing Our Domestic Enemies. We can take care of our FOREIGN Enemies LATER !
at the end of the day America was created by animals! your country will reap what it has sewn!! who are you to talk about justice when enslaved and murdered far more than Gadahfi ever dreamed. the white man is the devil.
I'm not surprised by the wild gang-styled frenzied-driven execution that has taken place in the wake of our NATO bombing. This was not a military operation, but a dog hunt, and The West lead the way.
Typical distorted left wing thinking. WE LED THE WAY? That's right, just blame us for everything wrong that angry Muslims do.
Ken, For what reason could anyone justify going to Libya? We had made our peace and were going on towards business as usual. There was never a legitimate reason to be there.
I do agree with what you've written.
Thank you,
L
Lee -
We have not discussed our personal feelings on the US military being present in Libya. Most of my friends agree with you that the US should not have been there.
But that was not the point of my post. Had there not been a single US soldier or airman anywhere near Libya and Gadhafi had met the end that he did, I would still feel the same about it.
When ya live in the 7th century….
From what I understand of the Muslim mind, which is baffling to begin with, to them, this was justice. No, we, as Americans wouldn't have dealt with him in the same manner, but then, we ARE civilized. For our politicians to be praising their actions? Not a good thing. Happy he's toasting with Mohammed? I have no problem.
Judge not, lest you be judged. Condemn not, lest you be condemned. No man will stand before God and say he is without sin, for the time is soon approaching when "every mouth will be stopped and ALL will be found GUILTY before God"! Therefore, to murder this man was EVIL, for who are WE to judge anybody? God will judge the world, each according to his works, NOT MAN. Anybody who says he deserved to die because he was evil, has condemed himself, because ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Patrick -
You have your biblical principles all turned around. The notion of universal sin and the prohibition against judgement are not mutually exclusive. Rather, they are highly compatible.
Yes, we all sin. But I cannot judge you for your sin. I cannot pronounce sentence on you … that's what judgement is. I cannot say what the condition of your heart is towards God based on your behavior. Only God can do that.
However, it is naive, foolish and unbiblical to assert that the prohibition on judgement means that I cannot call sin, sin. In fact, 1 Cor 2:15 requires spiritual men to judge or evaluate all things. Calling wrong, wrong; sin, sin and evil, evil is not an ungodly judgement. It is wisdom and an obligatory behavior for anyone with an iota of common sense and responsibility.
Thank you, Blue Collar Muse. A voice of sanity.
Well said Patrick.
Amen! I have no regret that Gaddafi is dead. There is some regret about Obama's handling (mis) of the entire Libya situation. We should not have gotten involved. We had no national interest. It is entirely possible we have actually assisted Muslim Brotherhood, Al Quada and Taliban, beginning with rushed fiasco in Egypt. Sadly, I do not trust actions of America's President. He allowed true democracy seekers in Iran to be slaughtered, and never said a mumbling word. His words directed at Syria sound and seem perfunctory, meaningless. Yet, he hurriedly threw our and Israel's friend, Hosni Mabareck under the bus, so to speak without even flinching. There are chemical and possibly nuclear weapons unaccounted for in Libya. Our Secretary of State (Anti-American) Hillary Clinton wasted no time congratulating and hinting at assistance for rebels- how can they not be victorious, when NATO bombs a path for them). Then, in Afghanistan we saw and heard her having a real belly laugh at Herman Cain's expense with Karzai, our (?) so-called partner??? So, with current office holders who are striving to fundamentally transform America, ( and turning everything into a possible re-election political event). I see everything they do-not for good of mankind and America- as electioneering and incremental step in fundamental transformation -exercise in futility- of America. I place my trust in God- final arbiter of Mommar Gaddafi's and his executioners' fate. For now, keep the faith and the conversation going.
he never met a dicator he didn't like
As strange as it might be, I think "bringing a man like him to justice" would turn into a circus. Why not allow justice to be served on the battle field? Lengthly trials turn out to be nothing more than a charade. Let justice be served by the very people he and others like him have harmed over the years. To call these people uncivilized is rediculous. They live in a culture we do not agree with because we have the mindset that we are civilized. Please don't be so naive. Different cultures see things differently than you and I, look at the world they live in through their eyes and you will change your tune about who is and who isn't "civilized." Maybe we're the ones needing a reversal in our thinking about what is and what isn't civilized. We coddle cop killers and kill our unborn. Civilized????
well said
DJ -
Justice is not served on battlefields. What happens on a battlefield as it relates to justice is hopefully the side that values justice wins and justice is, therefore, rightly installed in its place in courts.
Of course, that would also involve assigning worth and value to different cultures and then relating to them based on said evaluations. Doing so is not naive as you assert. It is the height of folly and naivete NOT to do so.
Equating "different" with "equal" as you appear to do is naive. It is precisely because I do view other cultures through their values and their eyes that I have not changed my tune about who is and who isn't civilized.
Or are you arguing that a thing's existence is what gives it moral standing? Because there are a host of examples from history where real people, groups and governments have existed and they are found to be morally reprehensible. Or is it just that I haven't spent enough time looking at them through their own eyes?
So why did the Military-Industrial Complex kill Osama bin Ladin without even a photo?
They didn't. Please don't introduce silly notions into a serious discussion.
As best we can tell, OBL was killed by members of the US military who gave him and the members of his staff/bodyguards/wives/etc … the opportunity to surrender. OBL and other armed men did not immediately accept that offer and were killed.
At the time, although I found the shooting of bin Laden to be just, I still argued it was not a cause for celebration.
That is not what happened to Gadhafi. Trying to equate the two morally is disingenuous at best.
Clearly written by a man who has never lived under the yoke of a murdering tyrant.
Make you a deal, I won't judge Gadhafi, you don't judge those who exterminated him.
Barry -
That is correct. I have been privileged to live under the morality of a nation birthed in the notion all men are created equal and entitled to their life unless due process deems otherwise. I have been privileged to live under the yoke of the rule of law that keeps me or you from being judge, jury and executioner; leaving those roles to timeless and consistent Constitutional devices. If you are not smart enough to make all the rest of the obvious similar and related arguments, I don't have time to spar with you.
So, I'll make you a deal. You don't find godly and moral US values worth defending and I won't stop you from leaving here for Libya to be ruled by the tender mercies of the exterminators you are so enamored with.
My guess? You're not man enough to put your money where your mouth is …
Someone hiding behind a nom de plume is attacking my manliness. That about says it all.
Barry -
Hiding? I've been here for 5 years writing and opining as the Muse and doing everything I can to call attention to myself.
Nom d' plume? Like you, I put a high degree of value on knowing who it is that I am engaged with when I am advocating for something. The message is difficult to evaluate without knowing the messenger. Anonymous comments are, therefore, less valuable than those able to be assigned to someone about whom things are known.
My 5 years here, with the give and take and the reach beyond this site of my thoughts and words, have made it impossible to hide behind anything. Exactly who I am and exactly where to find me is readily available to anyone with even a modicum of internet skills.
So, nice try on the "insult your opponent when you can't win the argument on merits" attempt. Would that I were as hidden as you assert. You have no idea. I'm still very publicly known, Gadhafi is still dead and you are still wrong about how that happened …
When the state has a hand in the death of an enemy combatant in a legally declared war or executes capital punishment on a convicted criminal, it is performing a grim, righteous civic duty. Absent those two conditions, it is an accomplice to murder. It’s not about semantics; it’s about the RULE OF LAW (the very thing that sets us apart from the countries we would aspire to liberate). Declare war, and then kill the bastard.
I'm with Kate on this one, besides who appointed us keepers of the world. To my knowledge my parents nor grand parents or their parents went around shutting a gun off all over town to celebrate anything. We have a very different value system then many country's of the world so who are we to judge their ways. I say if the people in Gadhafi country/world are not judging their fellow citizens who are we to judge them?
Kathleen,
Please think through your statement. Different values do not mean equally valid values.
Some cultures around the world advocate murder, polygamy, betrayal and all manner of things we here in the US find reprehensible. While we can admit those things exist and even see they have the right to exist based on the choices made by people there it does not automatically follow that their existence justifies or excuses the moral deficiency of those things.
Murder, theft and lying are bad. Just because someone does them doesn’t suddenly change their moral character. Further, we understand that people actually will do immoral things from time to time and so we have laws in place to punish them when they do.
That does not mean we are unbiblically judging them. In fact, it means the opposite. It means we are exercising our God given obligation to know right from wrong and to stand for right…
As evil as Gadhafi was I found the pictures of his demise disgusting and not typical of normal God loving human beings.
I watched the gathering of those vermin when they captured him…it was like watching a shark feeding frenzy!!
I want you to take me off your email list. You have obviously got your head up your butt and I don't want to read anymore of your laments about whether or not this guy deserved a bullet in the head. This guy did not deserve even five more minutes of life, never mind a show trial costing millions of dollars.
John -
Allow me to remove my head long enough to observe that you are not on my list. You were directed here from a link in an email sent from someone else's list. You need to tell them to remove your name.
Perhaps you should actually read what I wrote. Then you'd see you don't understand what I wrote at all.
I actually believe that Gadhafi deserves to be put to death for what he did. Bullet, noose or drugs, I don't care. But the process for accomplishing that needs to be in a court of law and at the hands of the state acting on behalf of the citizens of their nation. Anything else is vigilante murder …
Or can you not see that from where your head is?
Have we gotten so tame and politically correct that we now want to criticise those who suffered the most? Whose fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters were murdered, raped and dismembered, we now want to play amatuer lawyer with their decisions? Shame on you hypocrites. If you lived one week under this mad-man you would do exactly the same. These people lived for generations under this murdering thug! I spit in your face you spinless scum.
Ahhh, yes! I put my name on this. We all know who I am and where I am. I lay out the case for the rule of law and respect for all men, even tyrants. I act from the place that says earned and deserved punishments should be carried out by courts and laws and not vigilantes.
Then you come along. No name, no location. You get all emotional about what the people of Libya have endured as if emotional ravaging **justifies** bad behavior. Then you presume to know what I would do, evidently because you do not have sufficient strength of character or endurance of integrity to do what is right in even difficult circumstances. Finally you threaten me and insult me.
Merciful heavens! No wonder your own conclusions are so fubared. You are already the moral equal to the lawless scum that murdered a man in cold blood. Why would I expect you to be rational or thoughtful at all? And why would I spend a moment more with you …
How sad is it that so many Americans show what their true colors are, that being nothing more than "BLOOD THIRSTY" monsters.
For you that have never been in Lybia rather any of you know this or not the man was "LOVED" by his people, unlike the worthless rhetoric we are feed daily from our Twisted "PREVERTED MEDIA." That make up news to make a good case for the DC WAR CRIMINALS to make you all wish to send your children to False Flag wars that are little more than CRIMINAL acts.
Whats even more sad is that the very same Americans who feel that this is so good, quess what FREAKS. Your not long for this world,
As your CEO Barry Setoro / Harrison J. Bonnel, or Obama what ever his name is will start more wars very soon and your in his sights.
And guess where he plans on you going?
For a visit to a FEMA camp, where you will get your moment of truth.
Any American that cheered for this event makes me sick to be an AMERICAN!
Will you stupid fools wake up, how about you all give the 14th Amendment a qood deep read, and really understand what it means.
YOUR SLAVES bone heads, you have no freedoms and as clearly seen by GWB his father, Clinton and Barry they prove that with each passing day.
May God have mercy on your rotten Blood Thirsty souls.
Please, Bruce, don't help me any more, OK?
If you want to set up your own blog and post over there, please do. But don't bring that mess over here and insert it into a conversation that has nothing to do with your rant …
He was treated as he treated others. The rebels saved us a ton of time and money executing him. I have no issue with what they did. This was an act of war. Their commander was killed. That was the goal all along. It doesn't matter who, how, or why. War is brutal.
Gene -
You are exactly right!! He was treated as he treated others – cruelly, lawlessly, immorally, tyrannically, godlessly and a boat load of additional -lys. In short, the way he was treated was wrong.
But you are wrong that this was an act of war. Had he been killed in the firefight and attack that immediately preceded his capture, you would be correct. But he was a prisoner, not a combatant, when he was murdered.
If you are OK with that, if you cannot tell the difference between the two, then perhaps you ought to do a little soul searching.
If I watched my daughter be raped and by the same hand my son killed. I would not have a problem killing the man instantly as soon as I saw him. That's what was done. Rightly so, in my book.
Stephanie -
The luxury of sitting back and crafting hypotheticals is available to you because of men and women who disagree with you profoundly and who fought against your soft tyranny to provide America with an objective basis for justice.
You are basically saying that your own experiences and their emotional impact on you is sufficient justification OF your actions. What you should be saying is that it is justification FOR your actions.
Why you do what you do can be explained by emotion. The morality of what you do cannot be. That's why we have laws, courts, trials, verdicts and sentences. That's why we are different from the animals that murdered a helpless man as sentence for murdering helpless men. The hypocrisy is stunning!
It's pretty easy for some fool to critize what happened to that mean, murderous, dictator…Epecially someone who didn't fear for his life for over 42 YEARS!!!!!……………You have a lot of guts to condemn those people..You remind me of the people that are agains't the death penalty, Until someone hurts, kills, or rapes their loveones…SUDDENLY it's OK!!!..Let me assure you that the fool that wrote this memo is that type of person..If it were his family, then it would have been OK!!!!!
Actually Dan, what is easy is to turn a blind eye to murder and tyranny because there is an emotional argument attached to the issue.
What is hard is to stand fast for morality and justice in the face of emotionally charged and immoral arguments …
While I can envision that I might, indeed, take the law into my own hands were my own family involved – I can assure you that it would decidedly NOT be OK.
I'm guessing you are trying to create an out for yourself to act as you want as opposed to how you should …
The problem is that Libya is still a country containing many Ghadafi supporters. Capturing him and trying him may have provoked those elements to further acts of violence. As much as I abhor this kind of behavior, I believe that under the circumstances, Ghadafi received his due process; trouble is he wasn't due much.
Iconoclast …
At last at least an argument that is based in rational thought and not emotion!
I love your take that "trouble is he wasn’t due much."
I agree! From the perspective of American values, he was due the absolute minimum. Unfortunately, that minimum involves jail, trial, sentence and only then execution.
ERIC ODOM………….YOUR THE FOOL THAT WROTE THAT SORRY, STUPID NOTE ABOUT HOW POOR GADAFI DIDN'T A FREE TRIAL…………….ARE YOU REALLY THAT STUPID…………..LIKE I SAID ABOVE, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN TO YOU SO ITS OK TO CRITIZE THOSE PEOPLE THAT SUFFERED FOR MORE THAN 42 YEARS!!!!!!
Dan -
Eric Odom is not the fool that wrote the note. I am. Eric just linked to it. I don't happen to think he is stupid and I know I am not.
You, on the other hand, if not stupid are at least willingly ignorant (using the word properly) of what morality, justice and the rule of law really mean.
You cannot use an emotional argument to sweep away the things that make America different from Libya unless you are willing to turn America into Libya. Which was the point of what I wrote.
Perhaps you should read more and emote less …
I hope everyone realizes that Romney is a jerk and a polotician criminal for the New World Order. God help us if we cannot get an honest election.
Where is hillary clinton and your precious prez's name in this article? They were just as happy as any GOP was. Give it rest, either be honest or do not write at all.too bad it was not you and yours who suffered for 42 years with this cretin doing whatever he wanted regardless of your blathering.
Miss Judy -
Thanks for the drive by comment. My point was not to sully Republicans because I am a Democrat and want to besmirch my political opponents. My point is that I am on the same side of the aisle as Rubio and Romney and find their opinions, coming from that side of the aisle, to be equally reprehensible.
How revealing that you wish for me and mine to be subject to the horrors of Gadhafi's Libya. Doing so you show yourself to be as morally reprehensible as he is. In fact, you show you approve of his behavior as proper treatment for those with whom you disagree even as he did for those with whom he disagreed. But then you suggest that being subject to you for 42 years would be sufficient for me to blow your brains out justly. I swear, people don't think through what they say …
Even still, you are better served by having me in charge of what to do with amoral sociopaths such as yourself than you would be by having someone who believes as you do in charge.
"When did I wake up in Bizarro World?"
You wake up in "Bizarro World" every day. Luckily, you wake up in America. You should not assume that the rest of the world is like America because nothing is further than the truth. In fact there is _no_ other place in the world like America. None. Be grateful. The protections the Constitution give the American citizens you cite are the very essence of America in that the Constitution _limits_ the powers of the government. Without those limits on government America cannot be what you enjoy today. The essence of American exceptionalism is that the rights of the individual supercede the rights of the government. That is our stength.
The recent Libyan conflict was not about Ghadafi. It was about civil war. Ghadafi is dead. There is no government in Libya today but a seething mass of tribal loyalties and prejudices. Why would you, or anyone for that matter, expect any restraint in such a situation? There is no government. There are no courts.
In short order Libya will be overcome with the anarchy that grips Somalia today and it will last until another tyrant overcomes the anarchy. Sadly, it is the only way they know to live and 40+ years of suppression will soon be vented. The 20 and 30 somethings that are there today have never known anything else. You haven't seen anything yet.
And don't expect to see the atrocities that will be committed. As soon as it is no longer beneficial for propping up the Obama regime the whole thing will be dropped by the media. They will have no interest in showing the mayhem that Obama under the guise of NATO has created.
Regarding your first paragraph – EXACTLY!!!
Regarding the rest of what you say, not so much.
While you are correct that the system in Libya is not anywhere close to what we enjoy here, that is not sufficient reason to fail to advocate for the values and principles which will eventually make it so.
Thus, we cannot excuse bad behavior for emotional reasons. We cannot engage in carefully crafted hypotheticals to parse arguments which have no real life counterparts.
We must deal in the ugly reality that immorality and tyranny exist in the world. The only way to fight that is consistently and even at great personal cost to oppose it while advocating for morality, Liberty and Individual Rights.
I cannot speak for the upcoming atrocities or the youth of Libya who have known nothing but tyranny or for the administration. I speak for me and my love of Truth, Liberty and Individual Rights.
From those perspectives, what was done to Gadhafi was every bit the horror as anything he ever did. Justifying it, for any reason at all, makes one no better than Gadhafi himself.
I believe he should have gone beore a military tribunal rather than WASTE taxpayers money. If you are so concerned with giving war criminals a trial using taxpayers money, you be better trying to defend the thousands of innocent unborns who are not given much thought by your kind…Damn those "Republicans though, huh? You make so pretty good arguments…too bad you're not paying much attention to TRUE morality with regards to human beings who have NO sayso. People like you should not be writing about morality and fairness!
Ron -
Yours is the sort of passion that I admire. Unfortunately, it is paired with mental ability which I abhor.
How you arrive at the conclusion that because I advocate for morality and justice for Gadhafi in this post you are able to declare that I am absent on other moral issues is a feat of mental gymnastics that defies explanation.
It is exactly people like me who ought to be writing about morality and fairness. Precisely because I value morality and fairness and not specific applications of them. I want there to be morality and fairness all the time, not just when it is emotionally comfortable to provide them.
You really ought to do a little work on your critical thinking skills before you jump into an argument.
By the way, your idea that he go before a US military tribunal would guarantee that tax dollars would be spent on this. I argued for no such thing. He was captured by Libyans, he violated Libyans and Libyan laws, he should be tried by Libyans and the sentence carried out by them. That's what we did with
Saddam Hussein. Or did you not actually read what I wrote?
Nothing in my argument advocates for the US being involved in the trial.
What happened to Gadhafi was by his own hand. After the horror he visted on his people, What would you expect? He was dealt the same justice he gave others. He should be buried with a pig.
Tippy -
What I would expect is for Americans to respond to the situation from their 230+ years of having lived in Liberty and for them not to be agreeing with or excusing the murder of any man, even Muammar Gadhafi.
Now that Gadhafi is dead. Who is next ? Al Quadia ? We have seen Muslim Brotherhood rule Egypt. Now Mubarak is gone. So before anyone high fives . We have to wait and see who will rule Egypt.
The Libyans who exterminated Gadhafi were acting pretty much within the confines of their medieval culture. They also stone adulterous women and extract an eye for an eye. If "we" desire "civilized nation building" including humane treatment of prisoners in the world's hell holes, it will take a larger force and much longer duration conflicts.
I'm content with what happened. LtCol USMC Ret.
[...] More: http://bluecollarmuse.com/2011/10/20/am-i-the-only-one-disgusted-with-post-gadhafi-libya/ GA_googleAddAttr("AdOpt", "1"); GA_googleAddAttr("Origin", "other"); [...]
It's my impression that many of the responders to this article are missing the point of said article. It doesn't appear to me that BCM is saying that we should have "forced" the Libyans to do what we know to be morally right. It doesn't even seem to me that he's asserting that we should have prevented the vigilantes (for that's what they behaved like) from murdering (for that's what they did) the former leader. True, perhaps they didn't know any better–or perhaps they felt they were due some vengance. However we, as Americans, have a different view of the rights of all people; especially the rights and protections of a prisoner of war, for that was what Gadhafi was at the time of his execution.
The point of the article was, I believe, to remind us that we must stand for what is right and true. Have we always measured up to the high standards we (and the Constitution) set for ourselves–nope. But to condone and even applaude such base behavior is, in a word, unAmerican. I don't consider it meddling to stand for what we believe to be right. I consider it cowardly to do otherwise.
Peggy,
EXACTLY!! Although I thought I was being clear, perhaps I should have let you write the post instead.
The problem with Khadaffi was the problem with Kennedys, with Saddat, Reza Pahlevi, Hitler and many others. Zionists used them and as they knew to much there was one only way to keep the secrat. Get free of them and kill. That's the way sionists deal with those who serve them. That'll be the same with Obama.
Now Zionists control and manipulat USA and all the governmente as they have done since long ago. One day, not to far, They will do to USA and the americans what they did with Germany and Hitler. In America Zionists are already spreading the Hate against non zionist Jewish people. And what for is this? In the due moment they begin killing their religious brothers to tel the americans are devils and Zionist, using Jewish name-and They are not Jewish-will accuse americans and show themeselves as victims. Exactly like they did with Hitler and Germans in 1945. Fix that.
Ummm, Vitorino …
In a word, No …
I think that to sit in a nice room and in a safe place just having had breakfast etc. and using the computer on your desk it is very easy to judge what was done to Gadhafi by the mob that caught him. As I look back to my youth I recall German soldiers trying to be captured by the Americans rather then the Russians. I wonder how it would have been to be fighting against people who had just destroyed the town you lived in and killed the families of yours and your friends. It is impossible to compare a mob and a trained U.S. Soldier. Ken
Frank -
You are absolutely correct that it is one thing to sit here in my home and another thing entirely to live in Libya or another hell hole around the world. Our environment teaches us and shapes us in ways we cannot know.
However, as different as those experiences are, the one thing that we agree on is that they are, indeed, different. Living in America is not the same as living in Libya. Further, is there anyone sitting out there in their own comfy home who would willingly trade and go to Libya and live there?
To the vast majority who didn't raise their hands to go, you must then ask yourself "Why?" If there is no moral difference between Libya and the US and one is as good as the other, then why were we trying to change the Gadhafi regime in the first place?
The Germans wanted to be captured by Americans and not Russians for the same reason that Hussein was better of being captured by Americans and not Iraqis. We are different. We operate under different principles and values. In the end, even tyrants and bad people understand that our ways are better than theirs and prefer ours to theirs.
I'm not saying we should force Libyans to live by American values. I'm saying that as we take a variety of different paths to spread our values around the world, I'm hoping that at least Americans will live by American values.
Given some of the comments here, that doesn't appear to be any easier to sell here than there.
The way Gadhafi was killed probably seems normal to Muslims. It also seems normal to them to send children to war. They have a different set of values than we have. Human life means nothing to them.
We should never have been in that war in the first place. It was none of our business but once the Muslim resident in the White House got us involved, cheering his death only lowers us to the level of these mediaeval recruits. Some of the people loved him, others hated him but for us, executing a man without trial is not worthy of our Republic.
Well said Ken . . . though Gadhafi certainly merits execution by Libyans (and could probably be convicted of corporate responsibility for the Lockerbie murders; therefore meriting death under U.S. Law), these actions are barbaric, and superficial rah-rahing from GOP leaders is disappointing.
Ken, Thank you for writing this article. I often use the word "enjoyed" in regard to a good post. But, being truthful, "enjoyed" is not the correct word. "Pondered" is the correct word. First off, if one to consider morality or even justice, then they should well heed your words and concern. Having been drafted during the Vietnam War and having served for 22 years in the military, I had to come to terms with many related and relevant aspects.
I lost friends and fellow comrades in the service to their country — not as they saw it — but as those in power envisioned and defined our missions. Even when and if called upon to take another man's life in the line of duty or defense — or even today, in defense of my family, I would do so with absolute precision and no waver of purpose. However, I would not willingly wish to be in that role or willingly surrender my moral compass in the accomplishment of the task.
As much as I would carry out my responsibility in the military, I was bound to honor the Military Code of Conduct. I was not bound to the Commander in Chief but to the very Constitution from which he or she derived their authority. This aided in separating one (me) from submitting to a primal beast which would not only harm the innocent as well as the guilty but in fact would have consumed my own being.
As for me as a Christian, I could actually love the enemy placed on the opposite of the battle by the leadership of the opposing nations. That did not mean that death and injury does not, did not and will not happen. Fighting in a just and moral way aids in preventing one from descending into the pits of depravity and hate.
Recalling when Saddam Hussein was judged and hanged, I did not rejoice nor did I mourn his passing. Justice had been served in response to the vile and wretched actions of the very person himself. While not judging other cultures or their reactions to the death of Muammar Gaddafi, I was sickened by those in the United States who exceedingly rejoiced or celebrated his death and I was especially disturbed by reactions like those of our Secretary of State whose giddy responsed, "We Came. We Saw. He Died."
However, my greatest concern is when our own culture — not those of other countries — continues to erase the moral lines of behavior and response regarding justice. This places us all at grave risk. We will always be at risk of injury from the enemies without and those seeking to take by force what we have or believe in. Thus, I support our forefathers recognition of the need for defense (self preservation).
But the grave risk to the United States is the internal threat within our own society. Our society was based on God given rights and the rule of law – not the rule by people making laws. Our society is one in which each person's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness within the rule of law was clearly idefined. And, for any person, peoples or government to ever take away one of those rights is a grave situation requiring deliberation and justified actions before all members of our society.
The internal threat is grave indeed when we rejoice in or ever demands the taking of another's life, liberty or property without merit and due process. In the situation of Gaddafi, there is no room for celebration but there is room for acknowledging that one who lived in an evil manner came to an end destroyed by the very evil he created. There is no evidence that Libya will be permitted liberty and justice in the future. We may indeed have a greater external threat to our way of life. In summary, we have to avoid what at all cost what has occurred in Libya Passion that drives out contemplation and reason results in smeared and tainted justice.
Bill –
Exactly, spot on and right on target! Fire for effect, my friend!!
[...] In a “Beta” type of move, our good friend Willie Lawson has agreed to host a special one hour online show with us here at LibertyNews.com and we would like to invite you all to join. I’ll be co-hosting the show with Willie and the key topics of the show will be the 2012 general election landscape and the 2012 GOP primary. We’ll also be joined by blogger and movement organizer Ken Marrero to discuss his controversial post about the death of Moammar Gadhafi. [...]
I agree that Gadafi should have been tried. We shouldn't operate that way. Actually, we don't operate that way. I guess if you are going to be true to your beliefs, you have to be consistant straight across the board. Or, you are a hypocrite. Like your president. Anyway, as AMERICANS, we have to be better than those around us. Ever notice the Olympics how we had to be heads and shoulders above the Russians or we would not win? Their judges would always be hard on us. Well, we overcame it. Didn't we? I am PROUD, not in a vain way, to be an AMERICAN. I hope you are too. If you believe in GOD, which I do, you know that in the end, GOOD will prevail. Don't worry about false gods and other religions around the world, just do what you know to be right. That all. I din't like Gadagi either. It's certain, I don't like Obama. In my opinion, he is like all of these guys. Just give him the chance and you will see. Concerned AMERICAN, L. Velasco